Europe and the energy transition

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Erik Orsenna 

Hello. It is my pleasure today to talk to Mechthild Wörsdörfer, Deputy Director-General of the Directorate-General for Energy at the European Commission. That’s an impressive title!

But what does your day-to-day work involve?

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

I have been working in the field of energy and climate policy in Brussels for about ten years, with a period spent in Paris at the International Energy Agency.

Erik Orsenna

Could you explain how the European dimension is vital for the progress of the energy transition?

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

The European Union has 27 Member States. Our energy policy aims to promote renewable energy and energy efficiency. But each Member State remains responsible for its energy mix. For us, however, the European dimension is also about interconnections. This means helping your neighbour in the event of a crisis, as was the case in 2022 when, for example, France needed electricity from its neighbours. In previous years, conversely, the opposite was true, with France being an electricity supplier to its neighbours. 

We share common ambitions. For example, to become carbon neutral by 2050, in line with the 2015 Paris Agreement. We are working together on this transition to carbon neutrality by 2050, with common targets in place for 2030.

Erik Orsenna

Because of – or perhaps thanks to – Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, we saw the emergence of a kind of European unity, against expectations and in spite of our fears. Whereas before the crisis, energy strategies were somewhat all over the place.

In a sense, reality has laid down the law.

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

We already had a strategy in place before the crisis. But it’s true that the crisis and Russia’s response in Ukraine have really bolstered European solidarity. I think we can all be very proud, in the sense that there was no blackout. Of course, we saw unprecedented prices increases. But we went through it together. Both national social measures and common measures were used to support the most vulnerable consumers.

For example, European dependence on Russian gas has reduced from more than 40% to less than 10% at present. 

Erik Orsenna

And in such a short space of time! It's a bit like the history of vaccines. I’m an ambassador for the Institut Pasteur, and I saw the acceleration of vaccine production. So just as there is an acceleration in climate change, there is also an acceleration in our response to it.

We don't have to be relentlessly pessimistic. 

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

This acceleration means that there is less Russian gas. But there are much more renewables, solar energy and all kinds of clean energy, including hydrogen, nuclear, etc. We have seen a genuine acceleration, which is extremely positive. There has also been a reduction in demand, in consumption. With the extremely high prices, everyone has consumed less – both households and industrials companies – which demonstrates that it is possible.

All these measures meant we could avoid any problems this winter, because we were united. We have worked together. We have stepped up the energy transition, and we are much less energy dependent than before, for example on Russia. And we will continue in this vein. We really need to persevere and ramp up our actions so that we never experience this type of crisis again.

Erik Orsenna

The striking thing is the use of two levers: diversifying energy sources and reducing consumption. Both were triggered at the same time. 

I'm passionate about Europe, and I was wondering if we'd really get there. And we saw that it was possible to be less dependent on two levels: both on external sources, and in a sense on energy itself. We can maintain growth while relying less on energy. These are lessons that fill me with optimism!

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

Absolutely. We really played on that. We were less dependent on gas consumption, which is important. But also we consumed less electricity. Each and every one of us contributed, and so did industry. That's the first point.

At the same time, we diversified. If gas is still needed for a period of time, we will use other, non-Russian sources.

And there is a third element: we have ramped up everything to do with clean, low-carbon energy. This is something that everyone agrees on: we really need to reduce coal even further. 

Erik Orsenna

Does everyone agree about coal? We know that when our German neighbours decided to halt nuclear, coal came back into play. We know what is happening in Poland, and everywhere else. Is there a genuine consensus now that coal is not the energy of the future?

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

Yes. Because we have a common goal for 2030 to reduce net greenhouse gas emissions by 55%. We know that energy contributes 75% of CO2 emissions, and that coal is the most polluting energy source. So to hit this target, everyone needs to cut back on coal.

Even Germany, despite its previous decisions, wants to do away with coal by 2030. Poland, which is one Europe’s leading coal users, wants to replace its old coal mines with renewables or nuclear in the future.

Each country can make its own decisions. But it's clear that everyone is going to stop using or cut down on coal. From 2030, a few countries will probably still use some coal. But as portion of the whole it will be fairly minimal.

Erik Orsenna

Moving onto the issue of nuclear power, how does this look for the various European countries? Is nuclear viewed as a renewable or clean energy? What is the standard with regard to nuclear energy? As we know, this topic has been a source of great and highly interesting debate.

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

As I said, all the Member States can choose their own energy mix. At present, roughly half of the European countries already have nuclear power. France's electricity mix is 75% nuclear. And with the crisis, more and more Member States are considering investing in nuclear. This includes Poland, maybe the Netherlands, perhaps some other countries. Because, of course, nuclear is part of our own resources. Nuclear power should not be pitted against other resources. We need to utilise all of our own resources.

Erik Orsenna

The big change is that before, we had two or three sources. That was it. Things were simpler. But that's not how it works these days. Now, we have to use all the levers at the same time. We need all of these energy sources. 

So could you talk us through these various new energies? 

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

For electricity, which accounts for more or less 20% of all energies, renewables have led the way in Europe since last year. I’m talking about wind turbines at sea and on land, solar power, hydroelectricity, etc.

The electricity mix still contains about 30% coal. And then there is gas and nuclear. But electricity, as I said, is only a part of the whole energy sector, which is much larger than this. In transport, for example, oil still makes up 90%. Industry still uses 35% gas.

When we talk about decarbonisation, electricity is where we will make the most progress, because this is where there are renewables and nuclear.

After that, we really need to discuss transport. I believe that we will also decarbonise the transport sector gradually through electric cars. For industry, and sectors that cannot be electrified, there are energy sources like hydrogen, which is clean if it is produced from clean electricity.

Erik Orsenna

Let’s talk a little more about hydrogen. Hydrogen production requires its own clean energy sources. Otherwise, there is not much point to it, and we are back to the question of electricity. Is there a European plan for hydrogen? Is there a European dimension?

At one point, there was talk of a hydrogen Airbus. I’m from a generation whose love for Europe was built on this magnificent Airbus project. Especially since I wrote a book on the construction of the A380. It was a commercial failure, but magnificent technical success. Is there anything like this planned for hydrogen?

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

Yes. As I said, we need to electrify the transport and industry sectors as much as possible. And we are doing this. Hydrogen is currently not clean. It is mainly produced from gas and coal. So we want clean hydrogen. This comes either from renewables, from nuclear, or from gas via what’s known as “carbon capture and storage”. All these technologies are good. If the projects are based on renewables, then we call this “green hydrogen”. If production is based on nuclear, it has another colour. Hydrogen has a clean future, and we have a strategy with the Member States to create a market for scaling up hydrogen.

For the time being, electrolysers that produce hydrogen remain quite expensive. This is normal, as it is still an emerging market. We are creating the frameworks and the strategy. We have some money, and we are aiming for low-carbon and green hydrogen to be genuinely accessible by 2030, and for further expansion after this date. 

You mentioned the Airbus. We really did a lot in the energy sector during the crisis, with some ambitious projects. Lately, however, there has been an even greater focus on the European energy sector, whether for hydrogen, solar or nuclear. We want to maintain European competitiveness for all energy sources. Hence our proposal to the Commission that they focus on supporting European industry and its development. This is partly in response to the Americans and the Chinese. But it is really the awareness that we are very strong in several sectors, for example hydrogen.

Erik Orsenna

Who are, if not your opponents, then the people who you need to get ahead of? Because there is something called the obligation of result. I love results. And I have the feeling that you love results as well.

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

I'm genuinely all about results. And sometimes it's not easy. At European level, the Commission works with the Member States and, of course, the European Parliament. Sometimes, we spend a lot of time on the details. These are important, of course. But we need to stay mindful of the vision and the strategy we have developed. Everyone agrees on the strategy. But there are obstacles to implementing it that need to be overcome. There are different visions or approaches from the various Member States.

But this is our role at the Commission: bringing people together to discuss the issues. Dialogue is extremely important. It also includes industry and other partners, the universities. Together, we will get there. But sometimes it takes longer than expected.

Erik Orsenna

Could you give an example of a holdup that this dialogue has helped overcome?

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

Yes. Two or three weeks ago, we reached an agreement on the renewable target for 2030. This is a directive where there are many ways to speed up the permits, to really see how we can move forward together.

The debate over “why renewables and not nuclear” slowed down the work a little. But in the end we managed to say, “to decarbonise for 2050 and 2030, we need all the resources”. Like all Member States, the Commission has issued a statement confirming its commitment to renewables, but also to other avenues. This means nuclear for France, and other sources for other countries. 

This statement made everyone feel included in the debates. It also showed that there is more than one way to go in terms of energy policy. There are several pathways to achieve cleaner, more competitive and cheaper energy for consumers. We need to leave some space for the individual Member States. But we all share the same goal in the end. 

Erik Orsenna

Space for everyone to make their own choices, but with a shared vision.

You mentioned the universities. Of course this is important for research, but also for young people. How can we make them realise that this is where it all happens? Obviously, for young people seeking more and more meaning in their work. But also for schoolchildren, by telling them “look what is happening right now”. Because it’s very exciting to inspire them to say, and especially the girls, “But of course, why wouldn’t you be a player in the energy market”?

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

I make regular school visits. What I’ve found is that many more girls than boys are interested in climate issues, because the topic includes elements like nature and the environment. But when I talk about renewables or future technologies, the need to do much more in the field of research and innovation, it’s the boys who are more interested. But the two things go together. You have to see them as working side by side.

Of course, we need to fight climate change. But energy also brings jobs, growth and innovation. We need to put it all together. To get both boys and girls engaged in this developing sector. We have a lot of contacts with European universities who are doing some wonderful studies in this field.

Erik Orsenna

I have experience of this with a direct link to energy, because my job concerns water. We are in the process of launching a project to have part of a river adopted by classes of 10 to 12-year-old children. We want to give them a practical understating of what it means, this living entity that is a river.

Saving water is good. But adopting a river is better. I've done this with different schools. And I can tell you there are boys and girls together at the riverside, and they aren’t looking at the same thing. It's pretty great.

Mechthild Wörsdörfer 

Water is also a key issue. We need water for a lot of things. With climate change, there may be some awareness raising needed. It's really important.

 Erik Orsenna

I would welcome the chance to take part in a European campaign on these issues. Because water, clearly, is the link.

Listen – I must admit that I’m jealous. I think that you have one of the most important jobs today, in the most useful place. So I would like to thank you. We are not naive. We know it’s difficult. But we can see what the future holds for a Europe that was able to show a united front in the face of a major crisis.

I hope that this terrible crisis will stop one day or another, and that peace will return. And when it does, we will not go back to our same old pointless divisions. Because we must be wary of the lessons of this crisis. And peace is a pretty good thing, too. I remember the great Vietnamese strategist Giap telling me, "We are very good at war, but not so good at peace.” 

So my sincere thanks. It's truly a great thing to have someone like yourself doing the job that you do.